If you are involved in Health and Safety, Environment or anything in between, make sure to join us for some laid back learning!
In Episode 13, we talk to Billy Sim, a veteran firefighter & safety trainer of over 30 years.
Billy has taken his experiences and simplified them into a learning approach for people & businesses that focuses on decision-making, situational awareness and communication skills.
Billy firmly believes that workplace stress is strongly connected to poor decision making, which can result in serious health and safety outcomes.
He is on a mission to demonstrate how teaching 'soft skills' can both improve the mental health of employees and subsequently have a positive impact on safety.
Love Learning Scotland - check out what Billy is doing with the charity Love Learning in Scotland, UK
Billy Sim on Linkedin - connect with Billy on Linkedin to start a conversation
HSE - Soft Skills in Organisations - HSE study on the importance of employee participation in health and safety
Stress at Work HSE - lots of useful resources for workplace stress management
Thanks for pressing play and listening into the safeti podcast. We aim to break down the barriers to learning in the HSE space to help you stay motivated, improve your knowledge and maximize your impact. So on the show today you have an esteemed guest all the way from Scotland, Billy Sims is a veteran firefighter of over 30 years.
Who since retiring has taken it upon himself to share what he has learned during his time in the fire service and try and translate it into something unique and useful. Now delivering corporate training programs which focuses on soft skills.
Billy explains how he has extracted the key learning from as many years in emergency services and tried to simplify them into practical tools. These can be used in any context to achieve better outcomes for people and businesses.
If this sounds like something you would like to hear a little bit more about, stick around.
Welcome to the safeti podcast with your host all the way from a small green island in the wild Atlantic Ocean, Richard Collins.
Thank you for sticking around and joining me on this conversation with Billy Sims. I really hope you can take some value from this conversation. Let’s go over and speak to him.
Billy Sims thank you very much for joining us on the safeti podcast today and all the way from sunny East Kilbride in Scotland.
Yeah I'm glad to be here, I’m doing fine, glad to be here, thank you.
We're obviously interested to hear what you have to say, you have a lots of experience coming from many years in the fire service and now of course you're working as part of love learning Scotland delivering training and you tell us a little bit about your background just for the audience and sort of how you got here.
Yes Richard and my background I had done safety years in the fire service. That was roughly 15 years on a frontline fighter planes. S, I have a lot of, I have a wealth of experience of attending emergency incidents as a firefighter and an officer as well.
Then the last 15 years of my career I was involved in of the senior officer and I was predominately involved in training and assessment.
But then the fire service we have what's called an incident command. I was in charge of incident command. That involves helping firefighters and officers make risk critical decisions.
So I was heavily involved in this and I've done a lot of work with the Scottish fire service college and I represented the service a national level. Where I was responsible for things like leadership management as well as the soft skills.
What we call communications, situation awareness and decision-making. Because these are vitally important in the fire service. I don't think a lot of people realize why one of the things that made these vitally important in the fire service was partly the piper alpha disaster. Do you remember that?
Yes Alan I don't remember it as such. But not [03:09 inaudible] but it’s the mass of the disaster in oil and gas industry right?
Yeah but one of the issues you can know that Richard and Lord Cullen looked into the panel for disaster and one of the things he came out, one of his recommendations was and it was to do with risk critical decision-making. What he said was that conventional training was no good. I'm just paraphrasing here. But conventional training and the assessment was no good.
If the person themselves cannot make risk critical decisions at a time of extreme stress. So what he was saying, the answer then what happened was there were decisions made that the person was under so much stress, so they couldn't make the decisions. Though if you think in emergency situation, firefighters are the same.
We have to deal with emergency situations under the Health and Safety Work Act, all fire authorities have to make sure people of course efficient instruction, information, training and supervision.
So we had to make sure firefighters and fire officers and fire officers also had best prerequisite amount of training. So we complied with the health and safety at work act. But so we could do the job to the standard that public and we expect so that was where my background came from.
And that's how I focused on the risk critical decision-making. There was a lot of stuff done in Robert Gordon University and Aberdeen University on this. We got a lot of good information from them and we worked closely with professors and psychologists. To come up with a program to make sure that our personnel were trained as good as it could be. It was based on good empirical evidence as well.
So we had the psychology part over. We had the professor's input and part of my job was getting to a language that firefighters could understand and they could use on the ground. So that was very important to me and I've got a lot of background in relation to that.
Really something as you say you know that I guess a lot of people listening here involved in health and safety management and you know crisis management would not have direct training in terms of how to react under stress as such.
We always talk about preparation for those moments. But we don't necessarily have the competence or experience and actually dealing with it when it does happen. I have to say it is something that crosses my mind regularly. You know, what I would do if this happens? So I can certainly certainly see the value in it. Absolutely from the fire services point of view.
Have you identified why and how this could be useful in the corporate context?
One of the things I will say to firefighters and people who are ready to retire. We’ve got a lot of skills that are transferable. I was looking to see how their skills and knowledge I had, how I could transfer this over to the private sector. Because when in one of the key areas I've looked at was decision making. I was involved heavily in decision making.
That’s a key aspect of firefighting. But it's also a key aspect of everyday work. People have to make decisions. So I looked at all the reports I had and all the stuff I had from the professor's or psychologists and I tried to come up with a process.
I would like to come up with as a three-step process if you weren't for people making decisions. But I didn't actually have enough... I didn't think I had enough evidence. But then I looked back and within the fire service we have to keep things called incident logs.
Now when I go to an incident there's a log of the all the messages and that basically the messages are a logo of the decisions I've made. Now I was fortunate to have a log of every incident I went to as a senior officer.
So I had probably over a thousand messages I could go through. When I was going through them Richard, I was looking for as I was trying to look for key aspects of each incident. I was trying to break it down into three key parts.
We had recurring themes of recurring areas within every incident and that's what we are looking at. So I went through and I managed to break it down into four, I thought I had three key areas.
Then I went to look at historical incidents, not the ones I attended. But just any historical instant and I broke them down into three key areas and this is why I came up with this decision-making process. Now to me that decision-making process is very simple.
I'll explain it hopefully very quickly. I will not go into detail. Because usually it takes a day to explain the whole process and do the whole course. But trying to go into it very quickly.
So when you're making any decision Richard, the first thing you need to do is specify the expected outcomes. You need to concentrate and be outcome focused.
Look into these decisions, it would appear that everyone wasn't doing that and sometimes people were making decisions that under no circumstances could get them to achieve their outcome.
The first thing I see when making any decision, specify the expected comes. Because I'm very important and we teach people to do that within the program. The next thing we look at was identifying other factors and potential consequences.
Some decisions we seen within the fire service, other factors and potential consequences were so glaring and so foreseeable that people shouldn't have made the decision in the first place. So we look at that and the third thing we teach with in this decision-making processes is to maximize first-hand experience and my opinion Richard first-hand experience has not used anyway near enough.
It's the most undervalued commodity and I'm just talking again about from doing, seeing or feeling things. That’s how I class first-hand experience. Now I break these elements down and I show people how to use them.
But the other thing that I had to realize quickly. Decision-making can't stand on its own. It has to be linked to situation awareness and communication. So I had to in ways of incorporating all this into a package that would help people and the jobs.
Now I'm not talking about a mere instant. I'm talking about the work environment. The normal day-to-day work, the normal what would people have to do. Because I think these skills are key across every sector and it doesn't just have to be an emergency situation.
So that's why I approach that we take and that's why I broke it down into simple steps. It took quite a long time in a long process to get to this. But we are teaching it just now, people seem to understand it and they are taking it on board.
It’s absolutely fascinating to hear that you’ve you know you’ve obviously the fact that you have such amazing data there to be used and went and studied that data and then taken as much useful information as possible from it. Look for the commonalities and then boil it down into something that can be used in everyday context. So I mean really, it’s pretty awesome that you have done that in the first place. As you say there’s probably a lot of guys out there whether it be in the fire service or otherwise doing you know we all become accustomed to doing our jobs every day and maybe don’t realize for want of a better word.
The sort of data that surrounds us and the information that’s available to us that we can use to kind of improve things moving forward. so that is really fascinating and just tracking back a second just so that we understand in terms of the specify expected outcomes, are you talking about whenever someone encounters a situation that they identify the outcomes that they want to happen or are they identifying at that point the actual you know worst-case scenario of what may happen.
You know at that point the very first thing we train teachers when you make a decision. You specify what you want to achieve, and you specify your key objectives or your key outcomes. Now when we teach this does not usually mean just one outcome. We try and teach a number of outcomes. So you can look and you can go back and make sure they’re actually achieving those outcomes. You need to determine what you want to achieve before making any decisions. Because believe it or not Richard, it doesn’t always happen.
That’s absolutely clear. Yeah I got you and I expected that may be the case and so you’re trying to outline at a very high level what you want to achieve firstly and then you move on to the factors, the influencing factors or the potential consequences. Then so at that point you are looking at what can happen here worst case scenario or what you’re trying to prevent as a consequence or can you give us an idea of what that might be?
Yes Richard one of the things and I think one of the key analogies is road traffic collisions. I’m involved because I’m involved in a charity. We do employability and we do stuff again and I speak a lot to young people and I try and emphasize to them the dangers of young people driving too fast. If you see for example, a young person behind a wheel of a powerful car, his/her expected outcome, might be totally different. So they’ve not got the experience to drive at the speed they are doing for example.
We try and say to them when you drive the car you need to know what you want to achieve. Because if you identify the other factors or more importantly potential consequences, the example I would give to you is if you get a car at 18-19 year old and are going around a corner, they end up on the other side of the road as they’re going too fast. The potential consequence is to me and you are very foreseeable, we can see them.
They might not think of that and they might not even consider that. So they need to identify the other factors when they are behind the wheel of a car. That sort of thing is important and because I’m dealing with young people, they can totally relate to it once I start explaining it to them. Because I hate to see it, but I cannot go into detail on the consequences of some of these and this is one of the things I feel is very important as people do things and don’t look at the potential consequences. They don’t even take them into account.
Yeah I really understand that. I mean obviously growing up and you know the example of young people driving is very close to home, I think most of the people listening today they will probably know of someone that’s been in a serious road accident especially you know younger people. Obviously there’s a long history of that and as a parent I know it’s something that’s very much is something I really think about. I have a couple of young kids and you know I’m already starting to think about how I’m going to manage that and maybe because I’m working in safety, it’s more of my conscience and obviously with your experience you’ve seen the you know the difficult the end of it, when things go wrong. So we’ll not go into the detail on that. I’m sure we can imagine what you’re talking about.
You could you could imagine the talk had to my 18 year old little son when he passed his test. Let’s just leave it to that yes.
And so that’s fine. You’re thinking about the potential consequences, so whenever you’re thinking about this decision-making process, are you generally thinking about someone who is, I’m just trying to put myself in their shoes. Are you trying to put yourself in the shoes of someone who’s conducting an activity just more generally rather than, for some reason in my head I had sort of a first responder type person? But I think I’ve got that wrong haven’t I?
Yes Richard what I’m trying to do is I’m trying to say that if we say this process you can use it for any decision you make. So it doesn’t matter what it is, it could be any example. Before you make a decision what are you trying to achieve, what are the other factors, what are the potential consequences and then the third is maximizing my own experience. What experience do you have in that arena, have you done it before, can you use experience of others. So this is all the tools we teach and we show people how to do this and we do it by, we look at historical examples. We look at historical instances and we break this down and we put this three-step process into it and then people understand that a bit better. Because then you can explain in detail well they expected to do that, but the potential consequences were so grave that you wouldn’t even consider that. So we put things like that into perspective and train people to think in that way.
You’re talking about how this then applies to stress in the workplace and high stress situations. Reducing stress can then also lead to accidents. Can you tell us a little bit a bit how that actually relates and how you picked up on why that would be valuable?
Well Richard what I’ve done when I came up with this process, no I was looking initially to use decision making to help companies make better decisions. But to communicate better and have better situational awareness. So with then level learning score and we have a course just now in which we use situational awareness and soft skills to prevent workplace accidents. You’ll be aware most accidents are caused by human error. Human error for one of a better phrase is people making bad decisions.
So we try and change people to make better decision. Now it may sound overly simplistic. But that’s the way I see it. If people are making bad decisions and causing accidents, if we can teach them this process to make better decisions; they should stop accidents or reduce accidents. So that was my initial approach. I also thought these processes would be good for the work environment.
If people communicate better, if they have better situational awareness and if they make better decisions. So I started training the staff within love learning Scotland and then started talking about it and as I get down and I start to get into detail, the amount of people that said that they remember working another employer and some of the decisions that were made was and the stress it caused within the workforce. So these start get into great detail and some cited examples of people leaving the job, because of the stress and because of what was happening and getting offered another job.
Getting offered to come back and they wouldn’t even go back for more money because of the stress and I thought, I don’t think I’m approaching this from a different angle. I shouldn’t be looking to put this into for financial benefit of the companies.
I need to look at work place stress.
Because in my opinion and I can speak from experience here in the fire service, a lot of workplace stress is caused by good decisions, per situation awareness and poor communications as well. So that’s the three areas that I believe causes work place stress. but when I listen to the people in love learning Scotland and what they were saying they have the experience in their previous employment as well and the lack of these skills in the workplace is one is a major cause of workplace stress.
So I started carrying out research and there’s figures. There’s a figure here to support this. There was a survey done and it was between United Kingdom and the US workers. 40 percent said the main cause of work placed stress under organizations is poor communication. Now this is evidence I’m finding so why don’t we teach people to communicate better.
Yeah I know it seems very obvious doesn’t it. Something I don’t know if you come up against this. but I had a guy on a show recently who has this coaching for safety course that he delivers, Michael Emery is his name and he was saying that he has had quite a lot of difficulty, although now he is getting traction. But in the early stages from about five years ago when he introduced coaching for safety. So it’s all about you know giving people ownership in the decision making process as well. He found that the profession itself in terms of Health and Safety just didn’t value soft skills and just you know they don’t see it maybe or didn’t see it as tangible and maybe that’s a similar thing that you’re seeing.
When I approached this, I was originally trying to teach people to make better decisions. So the decision-making process would end up being more profitable for the company. But I have found it was almost like a eureka moment for me Richard. Because I’ve been approaching that so wrong.
I shouldn’t be looking at getting them to make better decisions to improve the finances. The main problem and the workforce just know is work place stress. I don’t know if you know some of the facts, the facts are absolutely horrendous. I think it was five hundred ninety five thousand workers are suffering from stress, anxiety and depression.
Now this is up almost quarter of a million from last year. So that’s a huge amount. Now I had looked back in my career in the fire service. I worked for an emergency service. We’ve seen some traumatic events and all my career in the fire service, I cannot remember anyone booking off with work place stress due to an emergency situation.
Every time I know anyone who is often workplace stress, it was a non-emergency situation. It was to do with the workplace, it was to do with as I say poor communications, poor situational awareness and poor decision-making. All these were the key factors. So because of the skills I have, I’m trying to use these skills to teach these key areas. Because I think this is the best approach and looking at stress at work, I think this is the best way to go about it now. one of the things I’m really conscious of, we at this point in time we look at workplace stress and we try and put things in to manage it. We’re trying to, if you want well-being programs and mindfulness programs and all this. But workplace stress is a hazard. If it’s a hazard. If we look at the hierarchy of controls for a hazard, the best thing is a elimination.
Why don’t we go to a eliminate stress at work? We concentrate on what’s causing it. If poor Communications is causing workplace stress, let’s improve communications and reduce it.
If poor situational awareness is causing stress at work, give people an appreciation of what’s happened around them and how their actions can affect her and if poor decision-making is causing it, show people a simple three-step process how they can apply it to any decisions and help improve work place stress. So that’s basically my approach to it Richard and I know it looks quite simplistic.
But I believe that the simplest solutions are usually the best.
Yes Billy, I would definitely agree with you there in regards to simplification being a massive benefit when trying to communicate these types of things. So we’ve got the three elements. I’m sure most of the audience will be familiar with the terms communication skills and decision making. The term situational awareness maybe isn’t just as common. Can you give us a little bit more of an explanation as to what that means for you.
Yeah and Richard because I came from an emergency, I was thought as from an emergency services background and what I have done as I’ve looked, some people breakdown in situational awareness is about perception comprehension and projection right.
But I just try and keep it simple.
Because when you explain it simply people understand. It’s a person’s awareness of what’s happening around them and how their actions and sometimes that in actions can influence this. Now this does not have to be an emergency situation. That’s going to no an emergency situation.
I think people with extremely poor situational awareness almost caused carnage. Because they don’t know… they are unaware of what’s happening around them.
So situational awareness is just important, just as important an emergency situation as a non-emergency situation and we try and teach this and we use tools so people can understand this. As we use good practical examples and as soon as we start training it, people go oh yes I see what you mean. So people can relate to it, because we put across very simply and in practical terms and I think that’s the key to this.
Richard: Ok, you were mentioning there somebody who had discussed just earlier this week. The key factors and reducing stress at work and you touched on obviously getting to the root cause and the hierarchy of control. Which of course many people will relate to and understand and I see you’re saying there. We aren’t tackling the true reasons why people are stressed in the first place. Because obviously that would mean questioning what the organizations are doing. Which is the more difficult question rather than putting in place management programs and so on to actually try and administrate the stress as such. Which is not what we want to do. So I completely understand that. I think it’s definitely the right approach.
We talked about stress at work causing obviously huge amount of days away from the workplace and mental health is obviously very much on the agenda at the moment. But there isn’t much talk from what I can see in terms of how that stress actually leads to accidents and the interrelationship between those two. Is that something that you’re trying to sort of highlight?
Yes we were looking at that as well Richard. Because it’s not just absenteeism that cause these, there is gray issue here. Sometimes presenteeism where people go to work and they’re under stress and they’re not fully concentrating. So a lot at the time this has a contributory factor to accidents as well. so we’re trying to look at the whole law over and we’re trying to look at how what we can do to help people realize that if the improving these why I see these three key areas, they will greatly reduce the incidence over workplace stress and if we reduce stress at work, a lot of accidents are caused by stress as you know as well and people are under pressure and this is why we are taking this approach. This is why we are going down this way.
I’m very much someone who like yourself values the soft skills side of this and feels that there’s much more room for improvement and hence why we’re talking about this today. Much of the difficulty of course is trying to communicate this to senior levels of organizations and so on. Can you give us any idea as to how you try and validate or justify this type of approach?
Yeah to put it in the simplest way possible Richard, see if you don’t train someone how to do something how are they meant you know how to do it really as sometimes as that simple. Before we want to do is we want to get involved in organizations?
Because we believe this approach is almost a spent to safe strategy. With the money you invest and endless training to give you about background, I mentioned love learning.
Love learning is a charity. We are set up as a charity. So see any funds and be gear for [29:08 inaudible]. We feed this back into our organization to try and help the most disadvantaged within our community. So we feed this in to every organization to help the community.
So it keeps companies, it gives them a bit of corporate social responsibility as well. So aesthetic on our training, before we are keen to go enter an organization and have a benchmark. Here is four your levels and are, here is for the, if you want here is [29:37 inaudible] and here’s what the workplace stress is.
Here is the bottom line.
We want to go in and we want to improve that by doing the feeling that we know makes a difference. I know that makes a difference. I know training people to communicate better will help prevent stress at work.
So we want to go in here, work with these companies. Who I would see as well, we’re talking about almost any sector we can go into. I’m not going to near as a subject expert or near sector. I’m going to near as giving them the tools and techniques that we think they need within their sector.
They have the leaned experience with in their sector Richard and I cannot take that away from them. I hope to use their land experience to help communicate better, help them make better decisions and help them have better situation awareness. So that is my whole approach to this.
Can you give us any examples of practical examples of what good practice might look like.
One of the things I look at is communication. We try and teach communication as simplest level as getting the right information to the right people at the right time, using the most appropriate communications medium. Now one of the things I’ve seen today and I think I don’t know whether it was the NHS.
But they’re looking to use almost scape and things like that to for patients, they’re looking to use that. we would [31:14 inaudible] is there an information getting to the right people yeah and as again at the right time yeah, as it now the most appropriate communications medium? Yes it may be.
So we would put that onto organizations and we would say to them, here’s what we’re teaching. Give me an example where that would fit into your organization. So we are using our tools, our techniques. But getting them with the land experience and letting them feta into [31:44 inaudible] trying to achieve.
I can certainly relate to times whenever the wrong communication method has been used to pass a message on and in terms of sort of causes of stress, would you see that peer communication methods such as using emails instead of one the one for example is a you know is actually a cause of relationship breakdowns and so on.
We give that as an example Richard. When we do this and less topic, we’re going to detail. We go maybe a couple of scenarios and we get people to identify. What would the best communications medium be then? And we show them the practicalities of good and bad communications. So we give them practical examples. We gave them to do a number of scenarios as well. So they take part in it and then they’d realize bad communications [32:39 inaudible] realize what the pitfalls are. So we get them to do it themselves and it comes across very well. Because it reinforces learning and I think that’s what it’s all about. But if you can do that practically that they can all understand and that’s the [32:56 inaudible] seems to be very well received.
I can really see the value in that. To be honest it’s not something many organizations or people within organizations will even recognize as a problem and that in itself is the problem I guess. But I suppose it is getting that level of awareness and self-awareness to the people and showing them where they may be contributing towards stress.
One of the things we’re trying to get across Richard and I do know a think I have worked in any organization or use well. We would not have people are nearing managers, who would go in there with the sole purpose of giving people work place stress.
That is never, I wouldn’t think that was ever their intention. But sometimes it’s a byproduct of poor communications, poor decision-making, and anchor situation awareness. So let’s clean these people. Because they’ve perception [33:52 inaudible].
However that might not be the case and we need to get people to almost chef the perception make sure the perception is the same as what they see as the same as the world see as well. So that’s why you’re not doing this right. T
his is hopefully giving people the tools and the training so they can do a bit better.
So they’ve got better understanding over and so they can see the consequences of if you want their actions and inactions, so that’s why we could Aaron s approach. Because we believe people genuinely want to do what’s best for the sales of the company, the organization. I know we’re trying to do is give them the tools and the skills to be able to do now.
I think this is really valuable Billy and thanks for coming on to discuss your approach with us today. Soft skills is something I brought up in a number of discussions online, on podcast social media and so on. There are a number of people right there who seem to have the perception that soft skills can’t be taught. Do you have an opinion on that one?
Trust me Richard, definitely can, I have done it, I have shown people and I do practical scenarios, I do in communication, I do it in situation awareness and I do it in decision-making. All these are classed as soft skills and you can everything in between in my opinion. People can be trained. If you give them simple tools, simple techniques and you explain it and a practical; I think that’s the key as well Richard.
You have to put in the practical methods that they can take on board right away. If you give them the practical examples here’s what happens if, but he’s how it could go if you go down this route. They take on board people want to learn. But they need to have a and a language and a format that they understand and that’s what we’re all about, that’s what we’re trying to achieve.
I really want to come on and do your training. [35:48 inaudible].
So Richard I can come over later, it’s not an issue. We can travel, that’s not a problem.
[35:56 inaudible] let the audience know [36:01 inaudible] we can find more information about what you’re doing there if you would.
Yeah and I work for a company. I’ve got more in company, but I prefer doing work through the charity and that is love lending Scotland. No we do corporate training. We are heavily involved in early years training. But we’re also involved in stress management as well. So love learning Scotland, we do corporate training and we do all this and it’s basically everything is fed back and to help the most disadvantaged or the farthest removed from the community. So it helps if companies are interested. It helps them demonstrate corporate social responsibility.
But there are other advantage we have and we can access funding from skills development Scotland that we are courses, then we are talking about if you are in Scotland, there may be funding for these courses for your personnel. So it can be a win-win situation. If we can secure funding you can get these courses. Thanks to this lovely country I live in. [37:04 inaudible] Developments go and support this and they support people getting developed and between. But the company is love learning Scotland. We are increasing our corporate training. We’re hoping to increase the premises as well and we really hope that this new approach gets people thinking. Because I really believe that’ll make a difference Richard, I really do.
Well thank you again for coming onto the safety podcast. I’ve been really interested to hear what you’ve had to say today Billy. Thanks for bringing your experience, your knowledge and making the decision to share it with people, take my hat off to you for that. Hopefully this this information you’ve shared you know will get out to people in Scotland and beyond and you know fingers crossed, you can move things forward from here. So thank you again and release some information and resources for people show them where to find you and so on and the show notes. So take care of yourself Polly and maybe caught up again in the future.
That’s great Richard, thanks very much.
Wow what a nice guy. I don’t know but I find that a really interesting call and as someone who’s involved in crisis management, I find it interesting to hear the views of another person who has lots of experience in critical situations and within the fire service.
I think it’s important for us to appreciate the emphasis that someone like Billy is putting on and putting toward non-technical soft skills. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
So please drop me a comment on LinkedIn, I’ll put a post on after this is released and let me know what you think. I look forward to starting a conversation with you.
That brings us to the end of another episode. Thanks for joining me.
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